signal » Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:58 am
Yes, QB is the most important position in football and it ain't close and thus the QB for any team is the most important and most impactful player for any team. No argument there.Willmark wrote Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:43 pm:Wins are tracked for QBs. You may not like that fact but they are.
MexicanHulk » Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:38 am
Did I say they aren’t tracked? I said they have nothing to do with a players talent evaluation on the field. With their production & value on the field. A fact you may not like but, is true.Willmark wrote Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:43 pm:Wins are tracked for QBs. You may not like that fact but they are.
Raider727 » Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:25 am
Wilson wasn't buddy buddy with no one on the team, pretty sure you didn't watch the video.mranquales wrote Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:35 am:Who cares if Wilson wasn't buddy buddy with Lynch?
Lynch is an awkward guy his damn self, so much in fact that he disarrayed the locker room while he was here. That says nothing about who Wilson is as a teammate and locker room guy in general.
Attyla » Thu Mar 21, 2024 7:20 am
I am trying to wrap my mind around wins not being a trait and I cannot get there. Brett Favre had 3 seasons where he had a losing record, one being his last year when he was pretty broken down. Statistically, that is unreal. Manning also had 3 in his career, one being his last when he was certainly broken down. Marino had 2 losing seasons, again one being his last when he was a shell of his former self. Montana, 3 losing seasons, two of which were his first 2 seasons when he started a total of 8 games. And yes, I know that Joe had some ungodly teams.MexicanHulk » Thu Mar 21, 2024 9:56 am
The reason some get wins more often has many factors. Good coaches, good rosters more often than not, division could be bad, conference not so good, etc. Mainly, of course, they’re just great players who make the most difference on the field as opposed to not. You mentioned HOF’ers. & then compared them to players that weren’t even close.Attyla wrote Thu Mar 21, 2024 7:20 am:I am trying to wrap my mind around wins not being a trait and I cannot get there. Brett Favre had 3 seasons where he had a losing record, one being his last year when he was pretty broken down. Statistically, that is unreal. Manning also had 3 in his career, one being his last when he was certainly broken down. Marino had 2 losing seasons, again one being his last when he was a shell of his former self. Montana, 3 losing seasons, two of which were his first 2 seasons when he started a total of 8 games. And yes, I know that Joe had some ungodly teams.
Then I looked at the other side. Jeff George had 3 winning seasons in his career. All but one were in seasons where he did not play a full 16 game season. Vinny Testaverde had only 2 winning seasons. Esiason had 2 winning season and he even went to the Super Bowl.
Sure, it takes a team, and I am not disputing that. But sustained winners seem to be able to do it with a wide variety of teams around them. And sustained losers, they seem to lose everywhere they go. Maybe I am reaching, but maybe there is more than a number when it comes to what a winner is. And if it is something inside a guy that pushes him to win at all costs, would that not be an undefinable trait? And maybe that is why they track wins and losses for a QB? I am certainly not a GM but maybe there is something above and beyond a team that propels sustained winners and losers?
heavyD » Thu Mar 21, 2024 10:06 am
I think Andy Reid is just as important as Mahomes. A lot of his play calls leave wide open WR’s where Mahomes only needs to deliver the ball. As good as Mahomes is I wouldn’t be shocked if he never wins a Super Bowl without Reid who IMO has solidified himself as one of the greatest head coaches ever and the best offensive play caller in the history of the NFL.WNYRAIDER » Thu Mar 21, 2024 10:41 am
...i've always thought the same.....and why i wouldn't want to see Renfro end up there. ..., after seeing how they can work with Kelce, having a slot type guy who can do similar things as far as getting open, and were he to have the type of space Kelce does to work after the catch.......complimented with outside speed. .....could mean a lot of extended drives.......heavyD wrote Thu Mar 21, 2024 10:06 am:I think Andy Reid is just as important as Mahomes. A lot of his play calls leave wide open WR’s where Mahomes only needs to deliver the ball. As good as Mahomes is I wouldn’t be shocked if he never wins a Super Bowl without Reid who IMO has solidified himself as one of the greatest head coaches ever and the best offensive play caller in the history of the NFL.
Opoponax50 » Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:10 am
Possibly. Maybe it's the opposite of the Brady Belichick situation. BB as a HC was really mediocre prior to Brady. Post-Brady he had one good season and then completely crapped out.heavyD wrote Thu Mar 21, 2024 10:06 am:I think Andy Reid is just as important as Mahomes. A lot of his play calls leave wide open WR’s where Mahomes only needs to deliver the ball. As good as Mahomes is I wouldn’t be shocked if he never wins a Super Bowl without Reid who IMO has solidified himself as one of the greatest head coaches ever and the best offensive play caller in the history of the NFL.
chucker » Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:15 am
Andy Reid is a great coach. But Mahomes is also the greatest improviser in the game - it's so frustrating to root against him because of the plays he just pulls out of his ass, even when his ankle is fucked. That made our back to back defensive TDs even more fun last year.Attyla » Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:27 am
So in reading this, you do not subscribe the the "just has it" theory? Because if that exists, that could be defined as a trait.MexicanHulk wrote Thu Mar 21, 2024 9:56 am:The reason some get wins more often has many factors. Good coaches, good rosters more often than not, division could be bad, conference not so good, etc. Mainly, of course, they’re just great players who make the most difference on the field as opposed to not. You mentioned HOF’ers. & then compared them to players that weren’t even close.
Let me try to explain better what I mean by it not being a trait/skill. In Madden (video game), there are ratings for Speed, Strength, Jump, Tackle Break, Juke, etc.
There isn’t a rating for Wins. Like someone is just gonna have a rating of 99 for “Wins”.
I understand there are intangibles that some people have that help contribute to a good/“winning” football club. Like Brady, Manning, Crosby. They lead by example. By teaching others, pushing them to work hard, having a good attitude, good character, etc. That can be infectious &, helps teams focus & work harder to be ready on game day.
What doesn’t happen is, during the game, that “Win rating” of 99 kicked in & that’s the reason the team won. If it wasn’t for that rating, they woulda lost. That’s not how it works.
They win cause the player is just that damn good. A HOF’er & played great.
That’s what I mean by “Wins” isn’t a trait/skill. It’s a stat the team accumulates as a by product of team play. Just so happens some players are more responsible than others toward that.
heavyD » Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:55 pm
He’s been doing less and less improvising as their WR group has got worse. He plays more within the system now but one thing he does really well is put the ball where it’s supposed to be as I think he’s the highest rated at accuracy % of hitting open WR’s.chucker wrote Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:15 am:Andy Reid is a great coach. But Mahomes is also the greatest improviser in the game - it's so frustrating to root against him because of the plays he just pulls out of his ass, even when his ankle is fucked. That made our back to back defensive TDs even more fun last year.
HesterLayes » Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:40 pm
i don’t care what Lunch says about anything..hated that guy after he pulled the Marcus Peters bullshit.fuck him.JTRaider » Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:56 pm
I recall an old post here where a fairly scientific study was linked with weighted QB and coach results, I believe the QB was more than 30% and the coach was around 20%.heavyD wrote Thu Mar 21, 2024 10:06 am:I think Andy Reid is just as important as Mahomes. A lot of his play calls leave wide open WR’s where Mahomes only needs to deliver the ball. As good as Mahomes is I wouldn’t be shocked if he never wins a Super Bowl without Reid who IMO has solidified himself as one of the greatest head coaches ever and the best offensive play caller in the history of the NFL.
srv5490 » Thu Mar 21, 2024 7:08 pm
Winning is a trait for a QB when their performance, and that of their teammates, is greater than the sum of its parts. It's a hard thing to quantify, but an easy thing to recognize. You can just see it in some QBs: